What I found most interesting about this conversation was the living example of Dr Wes Robbins bouncing between the polarities. In one minute he's explaining what we must 'do' in order to be (presumably) ok or happy. And so sets up ideals of human well-being and stories about how we can get there. Then in moments that come close to realisation he is talking from the idea that there perhaps isn't anywhere to go, nothing necessarily to be done. Or that it is the habit towards idealisation that gets in the way of the kind of being 'with' that may be helpful in terms of seeing the pattern of self creation (and subsequent belief in self) that drives so many of our current issues.
I really appreciated the conversation but at the same time find the language paradoxical and problematic. It seems to me as if we simply cannot escape our mode of creating meaning even though we know that the meaning we create is of our own making (both individually and collectively). We come close to accepting it but the annihilation we perceive in fully accepting it holds us off (I guess it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, an animal questioning it's meaning probably wouldn't survive very long). Hence the loop of bypassing and getting lost in 'essentialist truths' that seems to occur so often in the world of psychology and psychotherapy. As a third year psychotherapy student this is a conundrum I am constantly battling with. I am deeply appreciative of the nuanced view that publications like un psychology moot. If you like this you may also appreciate the non Buddhism blog and the imperfect Buddah podcast.
First and foremost, thanks so much for taking the time to read and listen! Second, thank you so much for your thoughtful comment and for engaging so deeply with the conversation.
I appreciate the way you articulated the tension between doing and being, and how we often find ourselves oscillating between striving for an ideal and realizing that perhaps there’s nothing to fix or achieve at all. It’s a beautiful and profound dilemma you’ve raised, one that I grapple with often in my work and reflections.
I resonate with your sense that our language can feel paradoxical, even problematic at times. It’s true that in discussing human well-being, we often construct ideals or goals, but in the same breath, we acknowledge the limitations and even the futility of striving for those ideals.
My favorite is when Alan Watts speaks to this contradiction with his backwards law—the harder we chase something, the further it slips away...
"To pursue something is to treat it as something outside yourself. In chasing it, you become a self-conscious seeker who feels incomplete and disconnected from the very thing you desire. This is the great paradox. The harder you try to grasp happiness, the more elusive it becomes. The more you seek security, the more fearful you become of losing it. The more you try to be loved, the more lonely you feel.
The mistake we make is to see life as a series of problems that need to be solved or goals that need to be achieved. But this constant striving creates an endless loop of dissatisfaction. The Backwards Law shows us that the things we most want — happiness, peace, love — come to us when we stop striving for them. It is only in letting go, in not trying to control the future, that we find what we’re looking for.
It’s like trying to relax: the more you try, the more tense you become. Only when you stop trying to relax, and allow yourself to just be, does true relaxation happen. And the same is true for life. The way to achieve anything meaningful is to stop clinging to the very thing you desire."
I resonate with this so much and try my best to remember and practice, but my daily programming, my deep indoctrinations, alongside what is most likely my own attachment shit provide me the most resistance. I find myself clinging and releasing all in one breath, pushing and pulling, screaming and laughing. So much of my cognitive and emotional life is wrought with paradox, so I am grateful that my mission, purpose and passion has some direction, lol. Most of us filled with all our contradictory emotions... joy and sorrow, pleasure and pain, all dancing with each other and gifting us the invitation to practice being! A silent whisper always there and calling us, what I would refer to as Eternal Spirit or Unitive Divine Consciousness. For me, its like a radio station that is always there and clear, but I have to dial or tune into it and that is something I am still doing my best at in these 42 yrs thus far, at least in this life, lol.
I also love when Ram Dass reminds us that even our human tendency and drives to strive are part of the perfection of being and existence.
We are caught in a loop, yes, but it’s a loop that reflects the deeper truths of our experience: that striving and letting go are both integral parts of being human.
Your point about the conundrum of meaning-making is especially poignant. We do create meaning, both individually and collectively, and it is this act of creation that both enriches and complicates our lives. As a third-year psychotherapy student, you're likely becoming more attuned to how deeply this tension runs in our work and the counseling/ psychotherapy field as a whole. The very tools we use to help others often rely on constructed ideals, unstable ontologies and epistemological errors, but we must also hold space for the realization that meaning itself is fluid and often illusory. It’s the delicate dance between these polarities that makes our field so complex and rich.
I love when Gregory Bateson says: "The source of all our problems today comes from the gap between our old way of thinking — linear, logical, separate — and the nature of reality, which is non-linear, relational, and paradoxical." (Mind & Nature, A Necessary Unity, 1979)
For Bateson, Ram Dass and Alan Watts paradox was not something to be resolved or escaped, but rather something to be embraced. I believe that they saw a complexity of the world, especially in areas like ecology, spirituality, communication, and systems theory, that cannot be adequately understood through simple, linear epistemologies. Instead, perhaps by acknowledging the presence of paradox we are able to approach a more holistic and interconnected view of reality.
I also really love the work of Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari, not sure if you are familiar or not? Deleuze and Guattari’s work on difference and repetition echoes this dance. Our experiences, while seemingly repetitive, are always imbued with subtle differences, creating new contexts and insights with each cycle. There’s a paradox at the heart of existence itself: the human mind creates dualities to make sense of the world, but in doing so, we often obscure the non-dual reality that transcends those categories. This is the challenge of being both a thinker and a practitioner in the world of psychology and psychotherapy—holding these contradictions without necessarily needing to resolve them.
Carl Jung referred to this tension of opposites as psychic tension or creative tension, which Jung felt led to the transcendent function, a space of growth where the tension of the opposites resolved as integration occurred on a deeper level, a synthesis or transmutation of sorts. Much like the ancient concept or symbol of the Mandorla, aka the Vesica Picis, representing the sacred portal or space that arises when the opposites intersect, merge. The mandorla shows that opposites are not meant to remain in conflict, but are complementary, and their synthesis leads to greater wholeness. It is a symbol of transcendence, where one moves beyond binary thinking or dualistic structures, embracing a more nuanced and interconnected view of existence. This "third space" created by the union of opposites holds the potential for insight, healing, and unity.
I deeply appreciate the time you took to respond and sorry for the lengthy response back, just wanted to share and take the time to mention everything that came up for me.
Your work sounds awesome and thanks for sharing about the Non-Buddhism blog and the Imperfect Buddha podcast. For me, these dialogues are crucial as we continue to explore the complex, often contradictory terrain of human existence. Thank you again for your insight and your willingness to grapple with these difficult questions. I look forward to hearing back if you feel called to respond in any capacity and if not no worries! Thanks again!
hello Cathlene - thank you for listening to the podcast and for your reflections. I see your point about bouncing between paradigm/ideals and the paradox this creates. I think I would say: we're all human and this is how humans operate, within deep paradox. I don't find it problematic, though. Also it was just a zoom chat, sharing thoughts about what we were thinking at that particular point in time/space, to be taken or left as suits anyone listening. I am curious about your choice of the word 'battling' and your desire to get to the bottom of something. I've been thinking recently about academia, and its desire to name/capture/define/definitise (is that a word? haha) knowledge and ideas. I love the world of ideas but I don't think we ever reach the end of our learning, ever, whether as scholars or as laypeople. Thank you for the recommendations, I will check them out! :-) xxx
What I found most interesting about this conversation was the living example of Dr Wes Robbins bouncing between the polarities. In one minute he's explaining what we must 'do' in order to be (presumably) ok or happy. And so sets up ideals of human well-being and stories about how we can get there. Then in moments that come close to realisation he is talking from the idea that there perhaps isn't anywhere to go, nothing necessarily to be done. Or that it is the habit towards idealisation that gets in the way of the kind of being 'with' that may be helpful in terms of seeing the pattern of self creation (and subsequent belief in self) that drives so many of our current issues.
I really appreciated the conversation but at the same time find the language paradoxical and problematic. It seems to me as if we simply cannot escape our mode of creating meaning even though we know that the meaning we create is of our own making (both individually and collectively). We come close to accepting it but the annihilation we perceive in fully accepting it holds us off (I guess it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, an animal questioning it's meaning probably wouldn't survive very long). Hence the loop of bypassing and getting lost in 'essentialist truths' that seems to occur so often in the world of psychology and psychotherapy. As a third year psychotherapy student this is a conundrum I am constantly battling with. I am deeply appreciative of the nuanced view that publications like un psychology moot. If you like this you may also appreciate the non Buddhism blog and the imperfect Buddah podcast.
Cathlene:
First and foremost, thanks so much for taking the time to read and listen! Second, thank you so much for your thoughtful comment and for engaging so deeply with the conversation.
I appreciate the way you articulated the tension between doing and being, and how we often find ourselves oscillating between striving for an ideal and realizing that perhaps there’s nothing to fix or achieve at all. It’s a beautiful and profound dilemma you’ve raised, one that I grapple with often in my work and reflections.
I resonate with your sense that our language can feel paradoxical, even problematic at times. It’s true that in discussing human well-being, we often construct ideals or goals, but in the same breath, we acknowledge the limitations and even the futility of striving for those ideals.
My favorite is when Alan Watts speaks to this contradiction with his backwards law—the harder we chase something, the further it slips away...
"To pursue something is to treat it as something outside yourself. In chasing it, you become a self-conscious seeker who feels incomplete and disconnected from the very thing you desire. This is the great paradox. The harder you try to grasp happiness, the more elusive it becomes. The more you seek security, the more fearful you become of losing it. The more you try to be loved, the more lonely you feel.
The mistake we make is to see life as a series of problems that need to be solved or goals that need to be achieved. But this constant striving creates an endless loop of dissatisfaction. The Backwards Law shows us that the things we most want — happiness, peace, love — come to us when we stop striving for them. It is only in letting go, in not trying to control the future, that we find what we’re looking for.
It’s like trying to relax: the more you try, the more tense you become. Only when you stop trying to relax, and allow yourself to just be, does true relaxation happen. And the same is true for life. The way to achieve anything meaningful is to stop clinging to the very thing you desire."
I resonate with this so much and try my best to remember and practice, but my daily programming, my deep indoctrinations, alongside what is most likely my own attachment shit provide me the most resistance. I find myself clinging and releasing all in one breath, pushing and pulling, screaming and laughing. So much of my cognitive and emotional life is wrought with paradox, so I am grateful that my mission, purpose and passion has some direction, lol. Most of us filled with all our contradictory emotions... joy and sorrow, pleasure and pain, all dancing with each other and gifting us the invitation to practice being! A silent whisper always there and calling us, what I would refer to as Eternal Spirit or Unitive Divine Consciousness. For me, its like a radio station that is always there and clear, but I have to dial or tune into it and that is something I am still doing my best at in these 42 yrs thus far, at least in this life, lol.
I also love when Ram Dass reminds us that even our human tendency and drives to strive are part of the perfection of being and existence.
https://youtube.com/shorts/T_URChJNK9E?si=INfffgYmbNFsZ3ry
We are caught in a loop, yes, but it’s a loop that reflects the deeper truths of our experience: that striving and letting go are both integral parts of being human.
Your point about the conundrum of meaning-making is especially poignant. We do create meaning, both individually and collectively, and it is this act of creation that both enriches and complicates our lives. As a third-year psychotherapy student, you're likely becoming more attuned to how deeply this tension runs in our work and the counseling/ psychotherapy field as a whole. The very tools we use to help others often rely on constructed ideals, unstable ontologies and epistemological errors, but we must also hold space for the realization that meaning itself is fluid and often illusory. It’s the delicate dance between these polarities that makes our field so complex and rich.
I love when Gregory Bateson says: "The source of all our problems today comes from the gap between our old way of thinking — linear, logical, separate — and the nature of reality, which is non-linear, relational, and paradoxical." (Mind & Nature, A Necessary Unity, 1979)
For Bateson, Ram Dass and Alan Watts paradox was not something to be resolved or escaped, but rather something to be embraced. I believe that they saw a complexity of the world, especially in areas like ecology, spirituality, communication, and systems theory, that cannot be adequately understood through simple, linear epistemologies. Instead, perhaps by acknowledging the presence of paradox we are able to approach a more holistic and interconnected view of reality.
I also really love the work of Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari, not sure if you are familiar or not? Deleuze and Guattari’s work on difference and repetition echoes this dance. Our experiences, while seemingly repetitive, are always imbued with subtle differences, creating new contexts and insights with each cycle. There’s a paradox at the heart of existence itself: the human mind creates dualities to make sense of the world, but in doing so, we often obscure the non-dual reality that transcends those categories. This is the challenge of being both a thinker and a practitioner in the world of psychology and psychotherapy—holding these contradictions without necessarily needing to resolve them.
Carl Jung referred to this tension of opposites as psychic tension or creative tension, which Jung felt led to the transcendent function, a space of growth where the tension of the opposites resolved as integration occurred on a deeper level, a synthesis or transmutation of sorts. Much like the ancient concept or symbol of the Mandorla, aka the Vesica Picis, representing the sacred portal or space that arises when the opposites intersect, merge. The mandorla shows that opposites are not meant to remain in conflict, but are complementary, and their synthesis leads to greater wholeness. It is a symbol of transcendence, where one moves beyond binary thinking or dualistic structures, embracing a more nuanced and interconnected view of existence. This "third space" created by the union of opposites holds the potential for insight, healing, and unity.
I deeply appreciate the time you took to respond and sorry for the lengthy response back, just wanted to share and take the time to mention everything that came up for me.
Your work sounds awesome and thanks for sharing about the Non-Buddhism blog and the Imperfect Buddha podcast. For me, these dialogues are crucial as we continue to explore the complex, often contradictory terrain of human existence. Thank you again for your insight and your willingness to grapple with these difficult questions. I look forward to hearing back if you feel called to respond in any capacity and if not no worries! Thanks again!
Warm regards,
Dr. Wes Robins
hello Cathlene - thank you for listening to the podcast and for your reflections. I see your point about bouncing between paradigm/ideals and the paradox this creates. I think I would say: we're all human and this is how humans operate, within deep paradox. I don't find it problematic, though. Also it was just a zoom chat, sharing thoughts about what we were thinking at that particular point in time/space, to be taken or left as suits anyone listening. I am curious about your choice of the word 'battling' and your desire to get to the bottom of something. I've been thinking recently about academia, and its desire to name/capture/define/definitise (is that a word? haha) knowledge and ideas. I love the world of ideas but I don't think we ever reach the end of our learning, ever, whether as scholars or as laypeople. Thank you for the recommendations, I will check them out! :-) xxx
Crisis is a managed emergency, to hopefully emerge before the disaster.